Rachel (00:00)
Trigger warning, this episode contains discussion about coercive control, financial abuse, and psychological and emotional abuse.
Taylor (00:08)
This episode was really important to us because we want women to know that it's deeper than getting your feelings hurt and not being able to buy a new car. It's a pattern of behavior designed to control.
Rachel (00:19)
Join us for a conversation with attorney and DV expert Laura June as we get deep into the silent forms of abuse.
Taylor (00:27)
Welcome to the Divorce Queens podcast where real women get real about divorce. I'm Taylor Wins, divorce coach, family law attorney, and mom of four.
Rachel (00:37)
I'm Rachel Kennedy, family mediator, parenting consultant, and divorced mom of three. We are here to cut through the noise and bring you the legal, personal, and practical sides of divorce because getting divorced isn't just a legal process, it is a total life transformation.
Taylor (00:54)
So whether you're thinking about getting divorced, in the middle of the chaos, or trying to rebuild after it's all over, you're not alone. Grab your coffee, your wine, or your walking shoes, and let's get into it.
All right, so welcome back. We have a really great episode for you today. It's also a really tough episode though, because we're gonna be talking about some pretty heavy stuff. Specifically, we're gonna talk about what we are kind of calling the silent forms of abuse. Everybody recognizes that if your spouse or partner hits you, that that's a problem, that's a bad thing. Everybody rushes out to help you. How can they help you leave? But there are all of these other types of abuse that we're not shining enough light on.
in our social circles and our groups. And the court is definitely not anywhere close to up to speed on these things that are really affecting a lot of people in the divorce process and in their post-degree after the divorce is over, those post-degree years of their lives. So we have a special guest here today to talk about this with us. We've got Laura June with us. Laura, can you introduce yourself?
Laura (02:03)
Yes, my name is Laura June. am a staff attorney at a domestic violence nonprofit, and I am very passionate about this particular subject. I am a second career attorney. I have experienced abuse in my personal life, and I actually wrote my long paper in law school about coercive control. So I've done a lot of the reading, and I'm just very passionate about the subject because there is not enough β visibility around it.
Taylor (02:29)
Yeah, cool. Well, we're super excited to have you. β I got hooked up with Laura through Rachel. β And so I saw Laura speak at a divorce group, like a group for professionals that support people through the divorce process. She was phenomenal. She had all these resources to, β like for us to go out and read and just learn more and taught me so many things that I, I kind of like,
didn't have language or vocabulary for. I didn't know what it was. So I learned so much and her presentation was like an hour and I learned like years of knowledge from her. So was really amazing. How did you meet Laura Rachel?
Rachel (03:09)
It's a funny story originally because of a local Facebook group because we live near each other. You're in every... Let's not talk about it.
Taylor (03:16)
Facebook group where I know and
you're like I'm in a group for this and
Rachel (03:24)
group though, it was like a local neighborhood Facebook group. And we met β and we just were kind of chatting. It was one of those by nothing groups, you know, are you familiar with those? Yeah, I think Laura like came to my house to pick something up, I think. And we ended up like standing in my driveway for like two hours chatting, because we figured out that we were both like super passionate about DV and were pursuing at the time this was years ago, but we were kind of both pursuing careers where we could like
help people in DV more formally rather than just kind of helping friends and stuff. And so we really connected and stood on my driveway for way too long chatting and the rest is history, I guess.
Taylor (04:06)
podcast.
Our best lives. The other thing I'll say about Laura because we're just here to toot her horn. Like, when I met Laura was before the talk that I'm telling you how great the talk was. But I met her in Rachel's office and then I sat there for like an hour just like chatting away when I was supposed to be probably I don't know working or something like else. But yeah, so Laura's super cool. So listen up.
All right, you guys, this is big stuff. So we're gonna talk about these silent forms of abuse. Rachel, do you wanna kick us off with one that you're really passionate about talking about?
Rachel (04:44)
Yeah, yeah. So we're going to talk about emotional abuse first. And I think this one gets kind of a bad rap because people are like, β you're just getting your feelings hurt. And it's like, no, it's way more than that. It gets into psychological levels and it's gaslighting. If you guys have heard, well, you guys have heard that term. If the listeners have heard that term, it's kind of, β
you see something happen, you know something to be true and the person's like no that didn't happen. you're crazy. why are you making stuff up? and you start to think maybe you're crazy or β victim blaming, eroding self-worth. β honestly i know somebody who is just phenomenally brilliant professionally and their spouse was telling them you're dumb.
It's easy, anybody can do that. It's not even any sort of big deal that you're going to school and getting these great grades and getting all these accolades at work and all these things. And it's like, β I don't see you doing that, but the hard part is too, is people start believing what they're told about themselves because you wanna believe that person, you wanna love them, wanna, well, you think you love them, you wanna trust them.
And then you're like, man, if he really thinks I'm that fill in the blank, stupid or that terrible of a parent or that ugly or whatever, I don't know. Maybe it's true. and it just, kind of goes, goes around from there. β in terms of, it makes it hard to leave because they've got you believing like I'm the only one who's going to love you. You're never going to find anyone else who loves you and all that stuff. And
It's so interesting because it sounds, I'm going to say almost a little bit silly when you're talking about it. Like, I would never believe that or I would never whatever. And it's, it, there are some really, really, really smart, really emotionally intelligent, like quality human beings who fall into this because it's so deceptive and so, β
Like that frog in the boiling water thing, you know? Like you wake up one day and you're like, what the hell just happened to my whole life? It took three years, five years, eight years. And then you're like, I don't know who I am anymore. I have no relationships with my friends or family because my partner won't let me talk to them. I'm doing poorly at work because I'm so stressed out all the time thinking I'm whatever all these things that he's telling me I am. And it
Taylor (07:06)
Yeah, exactly.
Laura (07:29)
Thanks for
Taylor (07:31)
Everything. And it starts with like, it starts early, right? So this is the one that people don't realize they're falling into, like you said, the frog in the boiling water, because it starts love with blood bombing. Everything's great. Right? And I could literally give you the personal story of my entire life, where we started dating, and we were engaged within four months, and everything was fun. And it was so happy. And we're going to these parties with our joint friends. And slowly, they weren't like, my friends and his friends, they were like his friends.
Right? And my friends can't come. And then we're like engaged over Christmas where I wanted to spend Christmas with my family, but he didn't want to spend Christmas with my family. So we go to Vegas, right? And it's all designed super intricately to like, it doesn't look like you're trying to stop me from being with my family. If you take me to Vegas and we go on a trip and it's so much fun. Right? And then it's like, let's rush and get married and have this immediate wedding. And we get married in 10 months. Right?
10 months from dating, not from the engagement, right? So now 10 months in and month 11, guess what? I get pregnant and now I'm not going anywhere. And so now, and then it's like, okay, slowly it's like, β you're gonna go to law school? Well, lawyers are so dirty. They're snakes in the grass, right? Never trust a lawyer. And then it's like moves on from there to like...
Rachel (08:39)
Wait.
Taylor (08:55)
your friends are doing X, Y, Z, one, two, and three and like turning me against my friends. And then your friends aren't allowed at the house and your mother's overbearing and she's not allowed at the house. And then, you're a lawyer. Well, that's great. You had two kids while you're in law school. Anybody can be a lawyer. It's a glorified master's degree. And by the time you get many, many, many years into that, you have no idea who you are. And then in my case, because I do have a very large personality and I'm not an introverted person,
that flip can switch to reactive abuse. And now you're on that person for being on you for five years. And then now you start snapping out and they're like, see, I told you, you were crazy. I told you it was you and you're the problem, right? And so it's this cycle. It's not like you're a weak person if this happens to you. It's like, it can happen to anybody if you don't know that it's happening because it goes so slowly till one day you wake up and you're like, what happened? How did I get here?
Yeah, narrative privacy, but you were totally talking about me, Rachel.
Rachel (10:02)
was. Sorry, go ahead, Laura.
Laura (10:04)
They spin narratives to other people as well. it's not even like part of the crazy making is not just in the household and between the two of you. It's they're telling certain things to certain people about you or things they want those people to believe that aren't true or sharing personal things that you don't want them to share with other people. And so they're kind of creating this world as well, not just within the home, but outside of the home, which just further enforces their crazy making inside of the home.
Taylor (10:19)
True.
Laura (10:33)
Because when you go out and you're with other people, they're behaving in certain ways and you're not sure why, because you don't know these conversations are happening behind your back. And you wouldn't think that the person who supposedly loves you the most is having these conversations or manipulating other people against you, essentially. Because again, it starts so slowly and people don't expect it. People don't expect that that's what someone is actually doing to their spouse. And so they just take it at face value and think they're supporting a friend and think they're hearing them out. But in reality,
they're creating this world where they can control you more because they've got more players than just the two of you.
Taylor (11:09)
Mm hmm.
Rachel (11:10)
I think something that's
really important too to think about is these people, not always but often, they're super friendly and they're super charismatic and they're the little league coaches or they're the pastor at church or they're the, you know, neighborhood guy who has all the barbecues or whatever and they create that persona as well because then if you go and you say
my partner's a monster, I need to get out of here. They're like, oh no, such a nice guy. He would love that. Yeah, I know. And so I think that's such a hard thing for people too. They're like, everybody loves him. How am I even going to find anybody to support me because he's just this big bubbly personality that's so friendly to everybody? No one's going to believe me.
Taylor (11:45)
gym.
Laura (12:09)
And then when you leave, they do the same manipulation to the kids. So then it's the outside world, it's adults as well, but then they're now sharing these things with the kids to manipulate the kids against you as well, which I mean, really ends up only harming the kids, but they just can't stop creating that narrative that they want to be true to again, control you. since they can't control you as easily because you're not in the home while they can still do it through your joint children.
Taylor (12:36)
Mm hmm. And that ends up with
Rachel (12:38)
and financially and all the things.
Taylor (12:41)
And we're going to get to the financials here in just a second.
Rachel (12:44)
I'm just foreshadowing
here for you,
Taylor (12:47)
The thing I was gonna say about the kids is what they're not thinking about and what they don't realize, cuz Laura, you said it only hurts the kids, is that there are enough children who are, they see it eventually, right? And they turn around and they end up damaging.
their relationship to their own children because the children imagine what it would feel like to have your world so rocked that again the person that's supposed to not only like love you the most romantically they're supposed to care for you take care of you provide for you be your safety and your support has been lying to you and manipulating you for years and then they you know so there's some really interesting stuff you can read and watch about that too β that i've kind of fallen into that's been interesting interesting to me in my life
But I think this ties in.
Laura (13:34)
literally
started this book Children of Coercive Control by Evan Stark prior, like I'm not that far into it and it's just fascinating.
Taylor (13:44)
Yeah, we'll drop that in the in the show notes. That's really good. So this ties in Rachel already mentioned it, but a lot of times the emotional abuse, the gaslighting, the manipulation ties into other areas, one of them being financial Laura, I know you have a lot of experience and I've seen a lot of stuff with the financial control you to talk about that.
Laura (14:03)
Yeah, so there's one of most common ways I think that people see it is when the abusive partner controls all access to the money. So sometimes one partner is a stay at home parent and the abuser allows them very minimal access, like a tiny allowance that doesn't even cover the groceries, β things like that. Or the partner is working β and they're not allowed access to their money. So their money goes into a bank account that the abuser controls and they don't have access, free access to that money.
Another way that I think people don't see or don't recognize as often is that the abuser can spend all of the money. So they may not necessarily be limiting your control to the money, but they spend and spend and spend. And at the end of the day, when you're trying to pay bills, there's not enough money to cover the bills. They can have job instability, so they can't keep or won't keep a job. So then there's income instability that way. So then there's a stress of the victim survivor having to.
take on most of the financial earning burden because the instability of the other burner. And there's tons of different ways that they do that while you're in the marriage. Then when you leave, they should also try and use money to maintain control over you, whether that's trying to manipulate income for child support or spousal maintenance, whether it's, β you know, disappearing money and assets as they...
as the divorce proceeding is going on, which they're not allowed to do, but they are doing it anyways. And then that can be incredibly chastely to try and recover that throughout a legal proceeding as well. So there's lots of different ways that they can try and control and manipulate the money while you're in the marriage and then while you're trying to leave the marriage to try to benefit themselves.
Taylor (15:47)
Yeah, I think in the marriage, I see a lot of people come in for a consultation, right? And they would never think of a lot of these things as financial abuse. Specifically though, the one where one partner works and is working and keeps a job, the other partner works when they feel like it, loses jobs, doesn't tell the spouse they lost the job, and then continues to spend and comes home with a smoker.
Laura (16:14)
He comes home β from an afternoon out with a brand new car that he doesn't have a job and has an auto loan that he somehow was going to pay for that you guys can't afford.
Taylor (16:25)
Exactly, exactly. We see this all the time. Like driving the family into bankruptcy, you know, they're going to buy groceries at the grocery store and with all the kids and they get to the front and the credit cards declined or the bank cards declined. And they have no idea where the money went when their paycheck got deposited two days ago. And they don't see, people a lot of times don't see that as abuse because it's not talked about at all.
Laura (16:50)
Mm-mm.
Rachel (16:52)
I had a case one time where this woman got married fairly young and her husband controlled all the money. So she was like in her late thirties at the time. She had absolutely no idea if, you know, she slash they had filed taxes at any point in the last 10 to 15 years or whatever it was. She had never opened a bank account. She had never, like basically her husband gave her like a cash allowance each week that wasn't even enough to cover groceries. Like you're talking about.
Beyond that, she had no idea how much money he made. She didn't make any money because she was staying home. She had no idea how much money he made, no idea what bank accounts he had or her name was on, no idea if they had filed taxes or not, no idea if there was any retirement accounts, none of it. And it was like, what do you even do? I mean, obviously I know there are ways to figure that kind of stuff out, but it's like, what do even do with that? How do you like, where do you even begin to untangle? Like you're 38 years old.
I'm gonna need to like walk into the bank with you and help you figure out how to open a checking account.
Taylor (17:57)
Because that's never gonna happen.
Laura (17:59)
Yeah, that's really scary.
Taylor (18:01)
I said, how scared would you be to leave? Yeah.
Rachel (18:03)
Mm-hmm.
Laura (18:04)
Because
you don't even know where to start. You don't have a foundation, a financial foundation. so being older than asking those questions, you feel shame. β And so there's not like it's really another way that they make it hard to leave is you're financially dependent on them. And that's exactly how they planned it.
Rachel (18:24)
Honestly, in my experience at least with my years in DV advocacy and stuff, would say much of the, probably the majority of the time, the biggest reason women feel that they can't leave is because of finances. β You know, like we already can barely afford life. How are we gonna afford rent times too? Or in some circles, particularly. β
I've been a stay at home mom. I have no college education. I have no resume. I don't know how to get a job. I don't know how to pay for daycare. Like they just feel like they're completely stuck. And I would say a majority of the time it revolves around these types of financial issues that we're talking about.
Taylor (19:11)
And then you're told that, you know, they're not going to give you anything and you're not entitled to anything. And you may not have no knowledge of the court system. And then even if you could scrape together enough money to get a lawyer to advocate for your rights and for, you know, what you need, you still might get pounded into the ground by the court system. That makes a lot of assumptions that aren't reality for very, very, for many people, right? That are out here living in this.
modern economy.
Rachel (19:42)
Yeah.
Laura (19:44)
one of my favorite parts about doing consults for divorces is when the client came in not understanding their financial picture or their financial rights, or just having a conversation of like, here's your financial rights under the law. And then leaving, you could see kind of like a weight lifted that at least they had some knowledge and information with which how to proceed and whichever path they took, they at least were armed with some information. And that's the other thing too, is like, even as you're going through a divorce process,
you are not fully healed from the abuse. So oftentimes the abuser is talking in your ear about your lawyer's lying or telling you things about the law or the court proceedings that aren't true. And you can believe that sometimes. It's hard to just turn that off. And so that's something that's tricky that survivors deal with as they're moving through the court process too, is if the abuser's consistently telling them things that aren't true, but they don't know what's true and what's not. And it's hard for them to discern that at that point.
Taylor (20:38)
Yeah, I've some clients like flip out on me about various things because they're like, you did this or you said this or this happened. And I'm like, Whoa, where are you getting this information just like very from a very curious place. And they very openly are telling me they got the information from their soon to be acts who
That is the continuation of that abuse is creating the confusion, keeping everybody in chaos, driving a wedge between the client and the attorney. And so it's really important, I think, for professionals to be more aware of this so that you can treat your clients with the dignity and respect of understanding that they're going through a lot instead of somebody who would be like, why are you attacking me? I'm helping you. And then kind of attack back.
Which is really tough. It's really tough. It's a tough dynamic for sure.
Laura (21:34)
And I like that you use the word like curiosity, because that's really what it needs to be approached with because these, especially when abuse is at play, it's so like, there's so many nuances to it and not every abuse case looks the same. And especially when you're with coercive control, very nuanced. so approaching your clients with curiosity to understand where they're coming from is huge because you don't know exactly where they're coming from.
Rachel (21:55)
say just to take that a step further too because you guys are talking as two lawyers which is totally fair. Most people listening to this are not lawyers but I would say take that advice if you're anybody who's interacting you know if it's your sister or your neighbor or somebody who's going through this kind of stuff do not just be like well why don't you just leave it's just you know it's I would never allow that I would just you know all those things not helpful just leave with love and curiosity first.
Taylor (22:17)
And don't know what you would allow if that wasn't your life. know, like you have no idea. If you've been married for 40 years to the love of your life, who's still opening the car doors and buying you flowers and caring for you and they're supporting you, you don't have a frame of reference. You just don't. And that's okay. That's good. I'm glad your life turned out really well, right? And that you have a strong partnership, but you can't always speak to, you can't at all then speak to what you would and wouldn't do. Cause you just, you just don't have the frame of reference.
Rachel (22:36)
to be honest, that's so victim blame-y too. Like we don't do that if somebody has some major illness or something. Man, I'd never let my body get that sick. If you've got a kid with special needs, I'd never let my kid act like, like we don't do that in so many other areas. And this is, I would argue, similar to that in terms of it just, like we talked about with the frog in boiling water and you don't know what's going on and you don't want to believe it's going on or you trusted this person to love you and care about you. it's like, dude, you literally promised in front of everybody we know,
to love me and care for me and this is not it. But yeah.
Taylor (23:10)
That's really hard. I think one thing we've started to highlight that I really wanted to talk about is that when you decide to leave, the abuse doesn't stop. And a lot of times because divorce is a legal process or even if you weren't married and you share a child, so you have a custody issue that you're dealing with, that's a legal process. And a lot of times abusers get savvy and get hit to using the court to perpetuate their abuse.
really sick and I wish the court would β do better and supposedly they're writing legislation right now about course of control and what that's going to mean for divorce and how we're going to weigh the factors and whatever. But I did hear the comment too that the legislature is concerned that if they were to write that legislation, are they giving a playbook to the abuser as to like, if I don't do this, you can't weigh it against me kind of a thing. So it is really tough. I don't know how you would legislate it, but I do think there needs to be more training because it's very clear that a lot of people use the court system as an additional arm of their abuse. can look like all sorts of things. It can look like dragging out the proceedings to try to run the other person out of money.
It can look like not giving them access to money in the first place so that maybe if they don't get the lawyer right off the bat, they can control and manipulate the divorce proceeding because they can say in the person's ear about what's going to happen and what they have to do and what they're not entitled to and all of those things. That's a really big one is β not being able to retain an attorney to advocate for your rights because your abuser has cut you off from the finances. One thing I want to say about that is that it's really tough when you've been so manipulated and gaslit for so long, but
Hear me when I say, if there are one or two or three people in your life that you can go to and say that this is going on. And I know that it's shameful and I know that it feels shameful and like it hurts to have to come out and say that. But if you can get access to the resources to get the help, please get yourself help. Because that's the last thing your abuser wants is for you to get a good attorney who can call bullshit on the stuff that they're doing to you and make them give you what you're entitled to as a person who was a part of this marriage relationship for all of these years. But I definitely see that happen a lot. Somebody will remove all the money out of the bank account. No, you can't get an attorney. You can't pay your bills.
getting your credit damaged because you're late on the lease and you're late on the credit card and you're late on the car note because they've taken all the money from you. Dragging the proceedings out forever in a day when they don't need to be, just refusing to sign, not showing up, showing up at the last minute to hearings, asking for a continuance. So you have to keep going and going in chaos and confusion. Another big one that we see is using custody as like a threat. know, like how many posts have you seen? How many people have approached you and said, I can't leave because he told me that if I leave, he's gonna take the kids from me.
He's gonna take the kids away. And what do a lot of parents who actually are the healthy safe parent who really love and want to raise their children, they wanna be there for their kids. How scary is it to think that you're gonna lose them? And now we're not even talking about getting 50-50. We're talking, I've had people come into my office and say, he's going to tell the court that I'm an alcoholic. He has a couple of bar receipts and a video of this night I was drunk 10 years ago. And he's gonna tell the court that I was an alcoholic and CPS is gonna get involved and I'm gonna lose the kids. And I'm like trying to be like, whoa, whoa, like let's slow down, like let's flush this out. But people can be so manipulated about like what the courts will do and what they won't do because there's not the information and the knowledge out there.
Are you seeing any of that? Either of you?
Laura (25:52)
I mean, absolutely. That's one of the biggest threats is threatening to take away the kids, threatening you'll never see the kids again. That's a huge one. And it's a huge concern, because obviously, leaving an abuser oftentimes... And so you want to remove your children from an abusive situation, understanding that you may not be able to remove them completely from the abusive parent, but you want to get them out of that situation. And so then the thought of, now he's going to have the children 100 % of the time, like that's a really scary thought. just not knowing, like, lay people don't know the law. Like, that's just not everybody out there knows what the family law statutes say. And then you've also got people...
Taylor (26:01)
Use effects of children.
Laura (26:20)
Everyone has an opinion and idea what the law says, which is generally wrong. So then you've got people telling you things that aren't true or telling you worst case scenarios of things that they've heard that have happened that may or may not be true, but you don't, definitely don't have the facts or any sort of any idea what actually happened in that situation. And it's terrifying to think that like, and there's a very real fear too. I think that's another thing to touch on is you can be a victim of coercive control and they're not really be a physical aspect to it other than maybe they will block you in the room during an argument or kind of.
you know, they're not punching you, they're not hitting you, they're not leaving bruises, that type of thing, but they can still be kind of physical with you, which is still a form of physical abuse. There can be a very real unfounded fear that something really bad could happen to your kids if this person loses control. Yes. going through this legal proceeding and leaving them, that's the most dangerous time is leaving an abuser, even if it's a coercive control type of abuse.
That doesn't mean that your children are physically safe. And so that's a terrifying thing to do as a parent, knowing that that is an option of something that could happen.
Taylor (27:25)
Yeah, and it's so scary. That's right. there's, sorry, where there's not like the physical component, people don't recognize it as much. But anybody who's been in a situation where somebody has slammed a car door on you and not let you out of the car or backed you into the room and not let you out of the room or stood over the top of you pointing in your face, yelling at you or done any of those types of things or slept in the bed with a weapon under their pillow knows how scary that is.
And then you do think, or right, somebody who's thrown an electronic against the wall because a baby was crying at night and they wanted to sleep. What now are you gonna leave the baby? Like, you know, you're like, it's very anxiety producing. It's so scary. It is so, so scary.
Laura (28:11)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (28:13)
Yeah. That's what I was going to say too, β with your point about the baby and stuff. I have heard so many times where the person doesn't want to leave because at least if they're there, they can be a buffer. Like in that situation, at least if you're there, you can hold the baby and take them to the basement so they don't keep the other parent awake or whatever it is. But if you're not, even if it's only 50 50 half the time, you're not there to act as that buffer.
against the other parent and that can be really scary.
Taylor (28:46)
Especially when you get into the court proceedings and what is that other parent going to do? They're going to go get the biggest, baddest attorney they can find. And that attorney is going to tell them what their rights are and what they're entitled to. And they will drag you through the court system for at least 50-50 because that's what they're entitled to, regardless of if it makes sense for the children or doesn't, or if they really want a parent or don't. And so there's so much of that.
that it can be so scary to start the proceedings, but you know, there's so, it's so difficult to get started, but like, it's so much better if you get the help that you need in those proceedings. For sure. So we got a few more minutes. We kind of touched on this already, but we just wanted to highlight again, really clearly and specifically why it's so hard for some people to lead these situations.
Laura (29:45)
So Laura, you to off? Yeah. So trauma is very real in this situation. speaking from my own experience, I had not used that word to describe the abusive relationship or what I lived through. A friend did. After I left and I got, was out, was even out, I think a few weeks, and a friend was like, well, yeah, of course you're feeling like that. You've been through a lot of trauma. And I was like, what? I didn't, I mean, it had never occurred to me. I didn't have that vocabulary around what I was going through. And I think that's what's really
pervasive and coercive controlling relationships is there's not enough knowledge and education about them. So people don't understand it's abuse and they don't understand they've gone through trauma and that has a huge impact on your nervous system. And then that impacts your not only like your physical abilities but your mental abilities. And it has a huge impact on decision-making and self-regulation.
You go through so much that it's hard to keep your nervous system regulated. So there's a lot of things. And once you leave the abusive relationship, you're still probably being actively traumatized, but you have to try and then start healing from that as well so that you can get out of the trauma mindset and continue to move forward in the best way possible. But it's incredibly difficult. And that's one of the ways it makes it really difficult to leave. Yeah.
Taylor (31:03)
sure. I remember thinking like you want to talk about trauma bonding. Like I remember thinking first of all this trauma bond city right here. I remarried my ex-husband right and so there were even like years thereafter after the second time where I'm like maybe I should just go back and like anybody who knows me is like dude you're badass like what are you talking like no like you have no idea what it feels like to like
Yeah, have lived through that level of trauma and then you're like, it's so distorting to your reality is the best way I can put it. It's like, there's such a loss of a sense of reality there. β It'll do some really wild things to how you're existing and perceiving things around you.
Rachel (31:50)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. β and I think the, that's like super intentional too, is my opinion that they work really hard to change the way that you see yourself, change the way that you see the world, change the way that you see your family. β I had, when I was trying to figure out what was going on in my marriage, I had a good friend who was helping me and you know, kind of helping me see what was going on. My
former spouse went through my phone when I was in the shower one day and saw which friend was attempting to help me and kind of see the light and then tried to convince me that that friend was poisoning me against him basically. β We see that with friends, family members. β So you kind of, wake up one day and you're like, where are my people? Like they're nowhere because you're no longer allowed to have
your parents over for Sunday brunch, you're no longer allowed to talk to this friend for that reason or that friend for the other reason. And it's, it's all a well-crafted game, I would say like a chess game or something where they're kind of planning ahead all their next moves and all that.
Taylor (33:10)
What about this idea, Rachel, that like, but he's such a good dad.
Laura (33:16)
Mm, yeah.
Rachel (33:17)
that goes back to that charismatic part. And I do see that a lot. It's interesting because actually a lot of times I hear that even from, in my case, it's women that I've often worked with who are coming out of abuse, but he's such a great dad. Well, okay, he knows how to feed him dinner. He knows how to attend school conferences or something. Fine. But I would argue if you are destroying your kid's other parent, you are not a good parent.
Like, if you are truly a good parent, you're gonna understand that having two whole healthy parents is best for those kids. like, I just can't, like even if they can do some of those performative things, like make dinner or coach soccer or help with homework or whatever, fine. Like those aren't bad things. Those are fine. Yeah, those are parts of being a good parent, but.
It's just so elementary to me. Like how can you be a good parent if you're actively destroying the other parent? Because everybody knows that it's not best for our kids for us to be broke and psychologically dysregulated and all those things that are happening as we're going through these types of things.
Taylor (34:38)
Yeah, absolutely.
Laura (34:40)
if or if they abuse you in front of the children, whether that's, you know, emotionally, psychologically, if they're doing that in front of the children, that's not healthy parenting.
Rachel (34:49)
or even lying about you or that kind of stuff to the kids. Just yeah, I really struggle with that one because I hear that a lot like even from the survivors like, he's a great dad. Well, okay, maybe in some areas, fine, but I just, if he's abusive, he's not great.
Taylor (35:17)
I think that's a hard and fast line. β I've talked about it a lot in the context of my personal story, but coming from a background and a tradition where divorce is β taboo, there can be a lot of shame and internalized blame if you come out and say, I'm being abused. And the result of that abuse is now I want a divorce. And so then
Is this even abuse? Like should I, I should just not say anything, right? Because one, there's the shame of like being, β having been abused, especially with that emotional and that I shouldn't say especially, but I can relate to the emotional, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the psychological stuff, because I'm so smart, you guys, like I'm so smart. How did this happen to me? Right? And so there's a lot of shame there that like you let this happen to yourself, quote unquote.
And that's really tough to deal with. And then there's, you sometimes as you're going through the cycles of your own mind and your subconscious, trying to figure out how you got here, there's some internalized blame with, maybe I did something to make this happen. And that's how we got here. Even if you're just blaming yourself for choosing the wrong person, I should have seen it. I should have known. And so I think a lot of times people don't leave because they have to admit.
admit quote unquote that like maybe they did something wrong to get here, at least that's what they think. Or they're ashamed that they were abused. Or for me, a big one was there was shame of leaving the marriage. And quote unquote, I'm like air quote city right now, breaking up our family, right? Another thing we hear from the abuser, you're breaking up our family, you're damaging the children with these decisions that you're making.
Nobody like they were already in a state of crisis living in this toxic environment already, right? Like I'm trying to repair, I'm trying to heal myself and them, you know, by doing this. So that's really difficult when it comes to leaving.
Rachel (37:22)
just wanna throw this in because I think this is an important point to make. β If anybody's listening and you're like, maybe some of this is sounding familiar or you're not really quite sure if you're in an abusive marriage or that kind of thing, β there are like a million great resources and we will definitely put some of them in the show notes. But two that I wanna just kind of highlight are the power and control wheel.
β That's super helpful to just be able to look at little snippets of what does emotional abuse look like? What does financial abuse look like? What does physical abuse look like? And it just gives a few examples β and you may recognize your own life in some of those examples. And then the domestic violence hotline. It's just the hotline.org. They have an 800 number. You can call, you can talk to them about a safety plan if you need to figure out how to leave safely. β
You can give them your zip code and they will tell you which, β which organizations are in your area that can help you boots on the ground. β they're just, in my experience, a really good wraparound kind of just have all of the resources. So there are plenty more books, podcasts, organizations, and we'll put some of those things in the show notes, but I think those are just two quick, easy resources. If any of this is resonating with you.
Taylor (38:43)
Any final thoughts? Yeah, cool.
Rachel (38:45)
Well,
such an important conversation. Yeah.
Taylor (38:48)
It's heavy and it's deep, but it has to be said so that people know they're not alone.
Rachel (38:55)
So.
Laura (38:57)
piggyback off that real quick. I do have a final thought is once I started developing the vocabulary for like what the course of control experience was like, I just sort of organically started meeting people who had very similar experiences through very random channels. So it was so helpful because that was just help with that isolating feeling is just now I have this vocabulary, so I'm able to speak to what I was experiencing and what I lived.
But then all of a sudden it's like, you can't throw a stick without hitting someone who's lived through a DV experience or has a loved one who has, like it is so much more common than people realize. And so once you figure that out, there's a lot less of that feeling of shame and isolation that goes on.
Taylor (39:42)
Yeah, that's good. Well, Laura, thanks so much for being with us. We look forward to having you on again at some point in the future because I bet we're to get a lot of positive feedback about what you shared with us today.
Laura (39:53)
Thank for having me. I'd love to be back.
Rachel (39:56)
Thanks for hanging out with us on the Divorce Queens podcast. If you loved today's episode, be sure to hit subscribe and leave us review. It helps more women find the support they deserve.
Taylor (40:07)
You can find me, Taylor, on Instagram at momlawyeredivorced and you can find Rachel at RachelTalksDivorced. Got questions? Need a pep talk? Want to share your story? Slide into our DMs. We're here for it.
Rachel (40:20)
Divorce is not the end of your story. It is the beginning of your comeback. See you next week.
